What if mindfulness isn’t about becoming calmer — but about becoming more effective, more human, and more kind under pressure? In this podcast episode, a former Navy SEAL(Jon Macaskill) and a mindfulness teacher (Will Schneider) meet each other far away from incense and yoga mats — and right in the middle of real life.
Both found mindfulness not out of curiosity or spirituality, but through pain, pressure, and adversity.
Through heartbreak. Through therapy. Through the need to keep functioning when the nervous system was overloaded and old strategies no longer worked.
What started as a performance tool slowly became something deeper: a way to heal, to regulate, to lead better — and to live with more integrity.
In this conversation, mindfulness is stripped of its clichés. It becomes something practical, grounded, and necessary.
We talk about:
- why performance and inner healing are not opposites
- how warrior culture and mindfulness actually belong together
- why effective action requires attention, restraint, and ethical clarity
- how men often show compassion to everyone except themselves
- why young men today are not weak, but overloaded and under-supported
- what social media, dopamine, and isolation are doing to identity and meaning
- why community and shared purpose are essential for men
- how mindfulness supports military, police, and first responders in real-world decision-making
- and why consistency matters more than perfection
Mindfulness is defined simply — paying attention, on purpose, in the present moment — but always with compassion, especially toward yourself. Because judgment, shame, and harsh self-talk quietly destroy men from the inside.
This episode is not about self-help.
It’s about service.
About paying forward what these practices have given.
About reaching men — young men, leaders, frontline professionals — who carry responsibility but rarely get space to breathe, reflect, or be seen.
And in the end, when everything is said, the conclusion is disarmingly simple:
In life, it all comes down to kindness.
Caring for yourself — and for others.
If you work under pressure, lead others, raise sons, or are trying to live with more clarity in a complex world — this conversation is for you.
Chronological summary of podcast topics
1. Personal origins of mindfulness
Both guests describe how mindfulness entered their lives through adversity rather than curiosity or spirituality.
- Will found it through heartbreak and emotional struggle.
- John encountered it through therapy, initially as a performance tool rather than a healing practice.
Both emphasize that mindfulness became life-changing only after sustained practice.
2. Mindfulness as performance and healing
John explains how mindfulness improved his physical, mental, and professional performance while simultaneously healing emotional wounds and regulating his nervous system. The conversation highlights that performance and inner healing are not opposites but often develop together.
3. Bridging warrior culture and mindfulness
John reflects on the perceived contrast between military culture and meditation. He argues that effective warriors are not defined by lethality but by attention, awareness, and presence. Mindfulness is framed as essential for battlefield effectiveness, ethical decision-making, and restraint.
4. The birth of Men Talking Mindfulness
Will recounts how he and John met through a mutual connection in a men’s retreat and began monthly conversations around mindfulness. During the pandemic, these conversations moved online (initially via Instagram Live), eventually evolving into a podcast. Despite very small beginnings, persistence led to organic growth and meaningful listener impact.
Mission statement (read aloud in the podcast)
Men Talking Mindfulness is dedicated to empowering men to embrace their true selves with bravery and authenticity.
Our vision is to guide them on a journey of continual learning, developing self-love and meaningful living.
We work to inspire men to lead lives that they can look back on with pride, and to create legacies that align with their deepest values.
We are committed to cultivating a space where vulnerability is strength, being yourself is the norm, and where every man can unleash their potential to live a life of exceptional impact and fulfillment.”
5. Evolution of the podcast’s mission
What began as “two men talking about mindfulness” evolved into a platform primarily focused on men’s emotional growth, leadership, vulnerability, and authenticity. Mindfulness is presented broadly: not only meditation, but also leadership, relationships, compassion, curiosity, and daily living.
6. Defining mindfulness
Mindfulness is defined (following Jon Kabat-Zinn) as: Paying attention, on purpose, in the present moment, without judgment.
Erik adds an important nuance: with compassion, especially self-compassion.
The guests discuss how judgment—particularly toward oneself—is a major source of suffering.
7. Compassion and self-compassion
Compassion is defined as the willingness to alleviate suffering.
A major theme is that men often show compassion to others but struggle deeply with compassion for themselves, leading to harsh self-talk, shame, and emotional suppression.
The speakers acknowledge that the phrase “without judgment” in mindfulness often misses something essential: compassion, especially compassion for ourselves. They note that while “we have this level of compassion for others”—friends, family, strangers, even people we don’t like—“the one that we struggle with most is compassion for ourselves.”
John illustrates this imbalance vividly, saying that if compassion for others is high, compassion for ourselves is often low. When something small goes wrong—“you tripped and fell” or “spilled a glass of milk”—the inner response is rarely kind. Instead, many people tell themselves:
“I’m a klutz. I’m a fool. I’m an idiot.”
This harsh self-talk doesn’t stop there; it runs through daily life:
“I’m a bad husband. I’m a bad father. I don’t belong in this line of work… I’m an impostor.”
They then pause to define compassion clearly. Compassion is described as:
“The willingness to alleviate suffering.”
At its core, compassion—especially self-compassion—is an act, not just a feeling or idea.
Judgment, they explain, increases suffering:
“When we start to judge ourselves, we suffer.”
Suffering is unavoidable—“life is suffering”—whether it’s physical pain, emotional pain, relationship pain, or psychological pain from unmet expectations. What matters is how we meet it.
Self-compassion means recognizing that we are suffering and noticing that we are judging ourselves for it. From there, self-compassion becomes “the willingness to actively take some sort of action in order to alleviate our own suffering.” This helps us see that “we’re humans living in a human realm” and that struggle is simply “the human experience.”
As this skill develops, compassion naturally extends outward. By becoming “more mindful continually of our own suffering,” we become better able to “alleviate the suffering of other people.” They describe this as “a beautiful play between compassion, awareness, and being.”
Finally, they emphasize that self-compassion is not easy. It “takes a lot of vulnerability… a lot of work… a lot of kindness and gentleness” toward ourselves. Instead of “so easily criticizing [and] judging ourselves,” the invitation is to “be kind… patient… and realize there’s a different path forward.”
8. Young men, pressure, and modern challenges
The discussion turns to young men and the unique pressures they face today:
- High stress and uncertainty about the future
- Weakening of traditional communities and role models
- Social media, pornography, and dopamine-driven behaviors
- Emotional suppression due to masculine norms
- Difficulty accessing mental health care
Despite this, the guests emphasize that young men are deeply caring and socially aware, but often overwhelmed.
9. The importance of community and shared meaning
All speakers stress that men need meaningful communities and shared stories—whether religious, spiritual, martial, or service-based.
Connection, curiosity, and shared humanity are presented as antidotes to fragmentation and isolation.
10. Mindfulness for frontline professionals
Mindfulness is translated into practical benefits for military, police, and first responders:
- Better emotional regulation under stress
- Improved decision-making
- Reduced unnecessary escalation
- Increased situational awareness
- More ethical and effective action
Mindfulness is framed as making professionals more effective, not simply calmer.
John describes a military mindfulness intervention introduced through Amishi Jha, in which soldiers practiced “somewhere between 13 and 15 minutes of mindful meditation per day for eight weeks.” The soldiers were assessed over time, and John emphasizes that eight weeks is not an endpoint: “You can’t do that… just like going to the gym. If you go to the gym for eight weeks, you start to get in shape. You don’t arrive at this level of fitness that you can just stop working out.”
After the eight-week period, the soldiers showed “much higher levels of engagement, much higher levels of communication with one another, and much higher levels of awareness,” which John explicitly equates with mindfulness: “awareness… is in and of itself a very short word for mindfulness.”
John then recounts asking General Walt Piatt how mindfulness fits with warrior culture. Piatt’s response is central:
“That’s not my goal. My goal is not to make warriors more lethal. I want to make warriors more effective.”
Effectiveness, John explains, can take different forms. “Maybe it is being more lethal,” such as pausing to take a few breaths before exiting a helicopter. But it can also mean better reflection and learning: “at the end of a mission, they’re sitting down and assessing what they did wrong, what they did right.” Just as importantly, it can mean restraint: “maybe it’s less lethal… acknowledging that there are times where lethal force is not called for.”
He gives a concrete example: instead of automatically assuming an approaching motorcycle is “an enemy,” mindfulness allows a soldier to notice details—“an American flag sticker… or an Allied flag sticker”—that “you wouldn’t have caught otherwise,” potentially “preventing lethal force when there shouldn’t have been.” In John’s words, “it’s essentially making these warriors more effective.”
Returning to practical outcomes, John stresses that mindfulness helps military members and first responders become “more in touch with yourself, more compassionate, more caring,” while also improving performance. On the shooting range, a calm nervous system matters: “If you’re shaking, your sight is shaking… you’re not going to be dialed in.” Controlling heart rate and breathing “is going to make you a better shooter,” but also preserves energy and focus during operations, where “you can get tired before you even start.”
Will adds that first responders always arrive when “shit’s going down,” and the energy you bring into a situation matters. Showing up angry or panicked “is usually going to escalate and make the situation worse,” whereas arriving calm and grounded can make you “almost be the fire extinguisher.” This capacity doesn’t come automatically: “it takes a lot of skill and a lot of time, a lot of practice, a lot of consistency.”
Mindfulness creates space between stimulus and response. As Erik reflects, it gives “a second more between stimulus and response,” allowing awareness—“I feel I’m becoming tensed”—and choice instead of reflex. John agrees: the key is daily practice. “I meditate every day to ground myself into the moment… if you win the morning, you’re going to win your day.” Ultimately, “between stimulus and response, there’s a gap—and that gap is your freedom.”
Reflecting on his own life, John says, “I wish I had had this earlier on in life,” particularly mindfulness and meditation. He believes it would have helped him be “a kinder person… more in touch and more compassionate,” and “more authentic and vulnerable.” That authenticity, he adds, “would have bonded me better with my men and it would have been an example to my men that they can be that way too.”
However, he is clear that mindfulness often does not reach young or high-performing men unless it is framed correctly. He explains that he was not initially interested in mindfulness to treat “anxiety, stress, or depression,” but because it was presented as performance enhancement:
“You’re going to shoot better… your heart rate’s going to be decreased… you’re going to be less anxious on the shooting range.”
In his words, “to sell mindfulness to some type-A personalities… you have to wrap it up in performance enhancement.”
11. Practical mindfulness tools
Concrete, accessible practices are discussed, including:
- Box breathing (4-4-4-4)
- Sensory grounding (5-4-3-2-1)
- Body scans
- Mindful walking, preferably in nature
- Reducing alcohol and processed food
- Cultivating supportive friendships
Consistency is emphasized over intensity.
12. Advice for young men
Key guidance includes:
- Practice regularly, not perfectly
- Accept wandering thoughts without self-criticism
- Change the relationship with technology (e.g., one phone-free day per week)
- Build habits that create space between stimulus and response
Young men are described as caring and capable, but living under high emotional load, weakened community, distorted masculinity norms, and digital overexposure. What they need is real connection, grounded role models, meaningful community, and practical tools—like mindfulness—to help them regulate, choose, and belong rather than suppress, escape, or react.
13. Influential books
The guests mention books that shaped their thinking and practice, including works on mindfulness, habits, meaning, masculinity, and presence. Here are the book titles:
- Wherever You Go, There You Are
- The Power of Now
- Stillness Speaks
- A New Earth
- How to Focus
- Atomic Habits
- The Power of Habit
- Man’s Search for Meaning
- Into the Magic Shop
- Way of the Peaceful Warrior
- No More Mr. Nice Guy
- Wild at Heart
- The Mindful Athlete
14. Future plans (toward 2026)
Their ambitions include:
- Reaching millions of men worldwide
- Expanding corporate and organizational training
- Launching a 12-week online mindfulness course with strong community support
- Continuing to live and work in service to others
15. Closing reflection
In the closing moments, the speakers reflect on why they do this work. They describe their motivation as living in service to others “by the skills that we’ve gained because of the incredible impact that mindfulness and these practices have had in our lives.” John frames it simply as “paying it forward.”
When asked to complete the sentence “In life it all comes down to…”, the immediate answer is clear and unanimous:
“Kindness.”
That word is affirmed repeatedly, with a personal note that reinforces it as a lived value rather than an abstract idea:
“If you can be anything, be kind.”
John adds a closely related principle, expanding kindness into action and responsibility:
“I would say something similar to kind — it would be caring. Caring for yourself and for others.”
3 Reflection questions
Effectiveness vs. lethality
The podcast highlights: “My goal is not to make warriors more lethal. My goal is to make warriors more effective.”
Reflect: Where in your work (or leadership) do you confuse “being strong” with “being effective”? What would “more effective” look like today—more restraint, more clarity, better communication, or better learning after action?
Your inner voice as your hidden training partner
We talk about how quickly self-talk turns into shame: “I’m a klutz… I’m an idiot… I’m a bad father… I’m an impostor.”
Reflect: When something small goes wrong, what is your default inner script? If a young man (or a teammate) spoke to himself that way in front of you—what would you say to him? What would change if you practiced the same standard of kindness toward yourself?
The gap is your freedom—do you create it on purpose?
A core line is: “Between stimulus and response, there’s a gap — and that gap is your freedom.”
Reflect: In which moments do you most often lose that gap (fatigue, ego threat, disrespect, time pressure)? What is one early bodily signal that tells you you’re tightening (jaw, chest, breath, tone)? How could you train noticing that signal sooner?
3 Call to Actions
Train “awareness = mindfulness” for 8 weeks (small, consistent, real)
The podcast describes a military intervention: “somewhere between 13 and 15 minutes… per day for eight weeks,” with the reminder that you don’t “arrive” and stop—like the gym.
Action: Commit to 13 minutes daily for 8 weeks (timer on). Choose one method from the text (box breathing, body scan, mindful walking). Track with a simple checkbox habit grid.
Use one “gap tool” on the next stressful call / meeting
Jon and Will lists practical tools: box breathing (4-4-4-4) and 5-4-3-2-1 sensory grounding, and frames mindfulness as performance and ethical restraint under pressure.
Action: Pick one tool and rehearse it once when calm. Then apply it once in the next high-pressure moment. Afterward, write two lines: “What did I notice?” + “What did I choose?”
Build real community (not “connection hits”) this week
Jon and Will say: “Tech gives connection hits, but no real connection,” and emphasizes community and shared purpose for men.
Action: Create one in-person or voice touchpoint: invite one man (colleague, friend, trainee) for a walk or coffee. Use one question from the mission spirit: “Where do you need more bravery and authenticity right now?”
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Jon Macaskill
CoHost & CoFounder
Jon is a Navy SEAL Commander turned mindfulness and meditation teacher. He’s a Naval Academy graduate and has his masters in Operations Research from the Naval Postgraduate School. Jon has served in Iraq, Afghanistan, off the coast of Somalia, and in Panama.
Jon brings mindfulness and meditation to high-performing teams to aid in dealing with stress, anxiety, and depression all while increasing focus, creativity, and productivity.
Since ending his 24-year military career in June 2020, Jon is now dedicated to spreading the practices of meditation and mindfulness to help others live happier and more fulfilling lives.
Will Schneider
CoHost & CoFounder
I am excited to teach you how to develop self-mastery. From teaching and practicing for the last 19 years, It’s a joy to work with long-time practitioners and students that have never tried these practices before or have only dabbled.
Stripping away all the fancy words and esoteric language has helped all my students embody these practices in a meaningful and sustainable way. This unique approach has placed me as one of the most sought-after teachers in all of New York City (ClassPass 2017) and beyond.
Let’s find out what you can become by working with these life-changing practices.